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11:17 pm
July 15, 2009
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Rhino
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Being Pilates in the play a few weeks ago has sparked off a question that has been marinating in my mind for a while now. What I'm wondering is, what relationship is there between sin and the fullfillment of prophecy? For example – Pilate made some decisions which ultimately (if indirectly) led to the execution of Jesus Christ. Clearly Pilate is responsible for his sins, but they were in fact committed in the fullfilling of prophecy and God's overarching plan of redemtion for His children.
Perhaps a better example is Judas Iscariot. Judas was a traitor to those he loved, especially Jesus, and his actions were directly responsible for the death of Jesus. I would imagine that this is a sin of the highest magnitude, maybe even unique in all of history for the sheer enormity of it. Was Judas condemned for his sin? Was he reponsible for what he did, knowing that it was all part of God's grand plan? Did he ever even have a choice in the matter, or was his fate always sealed? Someone could maybe argue that if Judas had decided not to betray Jesus then someone else would have had to. But the question is the same for that person: is what they did a sin? What are the repercussions of it?
I'm just curious…I would love to hear what you folks thing about this one.
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12:13 am
July 16, 2009
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bellecagas
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 Good question Rhino.
I want to take a shot, but that would take me another hour to just put my thoughts together. Although, I will try to simplify it with what's at the top of my head.
Starting off, we need to acknowledge the fact that God knew (in His omniscience) exactly who, when, and what's going to happen. The fulfillment of the prophecy was that, them (ie. Pilate, Judas, etc) were to commit those sins by their own choice. Yes, I believe they have sinned and God was fully aware of that because HE ALREADY KNEW IT BEFORE IT HAPPENED. For him, everything is in the PAST and thus, the prophecy was just a part of the history God ALREADY saw before it even happened.
In the case of Judas, for example, if he decided not to betray Jesus, it's possible that someone would've done it to “fulfill the prophecy”. I don't know and I don't have any grounds for this as of yet. However, I believe that his fate was NOT doomed for him to betray Jesus in order to fulfill the prophecy. It happened because HE CHOSE TO in his own free will. And GOD, in His omniscience have already seen it happen even before Judas was born.
I'm not sure if im making sense to you, haha, I want to say more but I need to put it together. I dont want u to get confused. 
ANYONE OUT THERE?
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12:17 am
July 16, 2009
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bellecagas
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Post edited 2:18 am – July 16, 2009 by bellecagas
I forgot to answer the repercussions part…
Romans 6:23 talks about the wages of sin – death. What they did was sin, thus, deserved what it ought to deserve. Plain and simple. Unless they've confessed Jesus as Lord (maybe in their deathbed, for Pilate; definitely not with Judas since he hung himself), they would've been redeemed.
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1:46 am
July 16, 2009
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EthosMarvin
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I agree with Ate Belle.
I would like to address the free will. Looking at Judas' case, i know that Jesus told the disciples about the prophecy of His Betrayal. And taking that into account, i think that's more evidence of free will, on Judas' part. He knew that someone was to betray Jesus, but he still chose to sin. For example, if i know what's going to happen in the future, say a plane crashing on my house at a certain time, i have a choice to avoid it or stay in my house and die. Knowing what's to come gives us an opportunity to decide; options. And i would guess that God knew that eventhough people were aware of the prophecy they would still commit it.
There is another case of the Prophecy and sin: Peter's denial. Jesus warned peter – in his face - or his, not one, but three denials. Now, Peter eventhough having knowledge of what was to come, still denied Jesus three times. This act of sin was just like Judas' (Sin is sin, whether big or small, they are all reasons why Jesus came to die for us). But the difference is what happened after; Peter sought for God's forgiveness, but Judas killed himself, leaving him unable to repent of his sin. So the repercussions of sin are always the same, but the solution to the repercussions is also the same: God's mercy and forgiveness.
So, i hope that helped in explaining thing (because it made sense in my head), instead of running around in circles.
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7:22 am
July 16, 2009
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Rhino
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yep, that makes pretty good sense to me. yes, what these men did was sinful; however they did always have a choice in whether or not they would sin, and they could also have chosen to repent and be forgiven (like Peter did).
It's amazing to think that God would forgive and forget something as serious as betraying His own son and causing him to be put to death. Judas still had that option even if he didn't choose to excercise it. Although if you think about it you can't really hold Judas, the High Priest, Pilate or anyone else directly responsible for the betrayal and death of Jesus – I think that was caused by the human race as a whole and we are all offered salvation and redemption through Him.
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7:25 am
July 16, 2009
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Rhino
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Post edited 9:25 am – July 16, 2009 by Rhino
bellecagas said:
Starting off, we need to acknowledge the fact that God knew (in His omniscience) exactly who, when, and what's going to happen.
Just wondering – doesn't this imply that whatever we do is preordained, since everything is in the past to God? And if that's true, doesn't it further imply that we don't really have a choice in what we do?
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12:04 pm
July 16, 2009
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bellecagas
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Rhino said:
Just wondering – doesn't this imply that whatever we do is preordained, since everything is in the past to God? And if that's true, doesn't it further imply that we don't really have a choice in what we do?
Ooh, that question that never dies. Love it. Sharpens our apologetics muscles! I wanna make it as simple as possible to not confuse you or myself as I explain it! 
God's preordained/predestined plan for us is perfect! Ephesians 1:4-6 – be conformed to the image Jesus.
Anything apart from that, meaning our own free choice to be disobedient for example, is NOT predestined by God because it was made by our own will. Though God may have already seen everything, it doesn't discount the fact that THEY WERE STILL MADE BECAUSE OF OUR OWN CHOICE. God just sees them already and we don't until it happens. However, God FORESEEING THE FUTURE DOES NOT MEAN he predestined it for us. It was still us, who made the choice. God didn't and will never “direct” us to do evil.
Do we have a choice in what we do? Yes, we still do.
I was actually thinking about this earlier… Siince God already sees everything ahead, I wondered if in the end I would disobey, disown, and completely turn away from God? Then it made me realize again that every day, my choices matter. I will become what I choose to be. So, for me not to turn away from God, I must make my choices that lead to that end. I must CHOOSE God every time.
Honestly, God is sooo simple, yet so complicated (in a good sense). Ephesians 3:16-19 reminds us that we can never know everything about God. We are not in his “time capsule” because He doesn't exist in time – He was BEFORE and even AFTER time! (Crazy Love). I can't fully grasp this. But one thing I know, I can experience the full measure of God through love. SIGH. God is SOOO awesome. 
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2:05 pm
July 16, 2009
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Rhino
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nice!! Yea, I remember hearing this question before, I think it is one of the classic questions that theologians debate about. I was kind of thinking along the same lines as what you wrote here but I wanted to see what other people thought. It's pretty intense to think that God exists apart from and even transcends time…it's a lot for our puny human minds to comprehend 
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