Post edited 1:56 am – March 24, 2009 by SekihMentis

(omgash! this thread is gonna be long!) thanks for posting this kpaul! really important issue!

i was almost an abortee. thank God my mom aborted the abortion and kept me! personally, i'm pro-life and i believe that only God should decide when life should be ended.

I think they're wrong, next question. j/k

Well first, to be fair, I want to say that I WILL SUPPORT whichever is proven right/true. I pray that everyone else, christians and non-christians alike will have the same heart on this subject (and on any biblical subject, like salvation). If we are open to learning the truth, with the goal of becoming better christians/people then there would only be one answer, IMO (in my opinion).

Post edited 3:58 am – March 24, 2009 by SekihMentis

life or being a human begins at conception!

i began existing when the sperm cell and the egg cell fused together or became one independent entity ; my chance of experiencing love and care began there, not when i was still a sperm cell or an egg cell (btw, you can't even logically call oneself to start existing as a sperm nor an egg).

oh i guess i'm pro-life with a pro-choice mentally; pro to choosing to protect life.

Hey Guys, there are great points here.

My argument is that abortion should be illegal.  The definition of murder is an act of killing another human being with malice aforethought.  The only reason they say that abortion is not murder because they believe that a mother does not have malice aforethought before aborting the child.  My argument is how can they prove this.  And because it cannot be proving, we should be safe than sorry and not allow abortion period. 

My second argument is a person killing another person without malice aforethought is considered manslaughter.  Which, last time I checked, was also illegal. .  The argument will continue unless, we stop and look at the fact that another person is being killed, either through murder, or manslaughter.

JON ERICK said:

WELL if u look at it in a scientific POW. LIFE beings at conception. Because all scientists  (coming from an evolutionary perspective) agree that LIFE started with one cell. and what is a FETUS? as mentioned earlier a mass of cells right? so basically life begins at conception  because its the sperm and egg coming together and badda bing bada boom you have a newly formed cell.

Hi Jon! Thanks for joining. you make a good point. BTW (by the way), I'm no expert on abortion or apologetics, I'm just a person seeking the truth.

what's POW? prisoner of war?

About your post- Someone might argue that Life is not a good enough reason to keep it. In an extreme example, tumors, for instance, are alive but in a sense, just tissue and should not feel any remorse for taking it out, like tonsils.

This is great! you gusy are really thinking, i appreciate all the inputs so far! Someone convince me that Abortion should be illegal! i just want the truth!

A liitle off topic… I just realized something, whenever researching what the world/secular says about certain “sensitive” or controversial subjects, be prayed up. Don't forget your stand. They have very convincing arguments if you're not well grounded. After all, what they believe is “true” to them!

Good point about the tumor! So then part of the definition of a human is not just be alive but to live in a society. <– i think that's going in the right direction because we're now defining what it is to be human. And once it is defined that fetuses are human beings, they cannot be “aborted” but rather “killed” therefore, illegal.

Now what if i said that I agree with you, you can't kill a human that will be living in society. But a fetus by itself cannot live in a society until after its born. Then by our definitions (so far), if we abort/terminate the pregnancy before the fetus is in the society (newborn), it's not a human yet. right?

Great comments so far! I'm learning a lot!

Thanks for all the comments, opinions, and inputs

Anyone else?

Please post whatever your opinions are whether it be pro-life and/or pro-choice! Opinons are never wrong, only false information.

So let's get to the bottom of this and try to reasonably weed out inaccurate information..

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thank you for your awesome response bc! i would like to answer your questions.

yes, i agree to the conclusion that abortion is wrong because a fetus is a human life and ending another human life is wrong (murder in the case of abortion).

yes, it is because of my faith – personally, my gratitude for what God has given me and for what He has done in my life, my fear of Him, and love for Him that leads me to assert that killing another life is wrong (and there is/are exception(s) ofcourse, e.g. self-defense). yes, i do believe that a fetus is a soul. even though the Bible is “silent” or doesn't explicitly say that abortion is wrong, God revealed His love for us in His Word through his king/prophet david (please take the time to read the following verses from the Bible for it is beautiful):

Psalm 139 (NIV)

1 O Lord, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O Lord.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths,a you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

i personally would love for other people, even those who don't share my faith, to come from the same light. i wouldn't impose my standards but God's standards (or better yet God's love for His creation) on others who don't have the same faith as i have. there are options other than aborting the baby (lots of programs that help women with their pregnancy and lots of couples are dying to adopt babies). i was almost an abortee. i thank God that my mom decided to abort my abortion. life is a blessing; it's beautiful and wonderful even though not everything is easy. and life is more awesome lived in Christ Jesus our Savior, our Lord, our God, from whom real joy, love, hope, peace and forgiveness are received.

and that's my answer… personal and coming from a christian perspective.

i would like to answer coming from a non-christian but humanistic perspective on behalf of other people that share my conviction. please be aware that the following are not my own words but an excerpt taken from carm.org:

[excerpt starts]

Many people will refuse to accept God's word as a standard by which they should live and make decisions.  That is their right to reject it.  Nevertheless, I (Matt Slick of carm.org) offer the following as reasons for not having abortions.

1. What is growing in the womb of the woman is alive.

Even one-celled creatures are alive. What is growing in the woman is more than a one-celled creature.

2. The nature of the life in the woman is human.

It is the product of human DNA; therefore, its nature, its essence, is undeniably human. Because it is human in nature, if left to live, it will result in a fully developed human baby. Humans are humans not because they have feet, hands, walk vertically, and speak, etc.  Not all people have feet, hands, can walk, and speak. They are humans because of their nature, their essence, not because of physical abilities or disabilities.

A person born without arms and legs is still human. A person who cannot speak is still human. A person in a coma, helpless, unaware, unmoving, is still human by nature and it is wrong to murder such a person.

What is growing in the womb does not have the nature of an animal, bird, or fish. It has human nature. If it is not human in nature, then what nature is it? If it is not human in nature, then does it have a different nature than human? If so, then from where did it get this different nature, since the only sources of its nature are human egg and and human sperm?

Objection: A cell in the body has human DNA and is alive and it's okay to kill it.  So, it doesn't make any difference with a fetus. Though it is true that a cell in the human body has DNA and is alive, a cell (muscle cell, skin cell, etc.) has the nature of being only what it is — not a human. In other words, a muscle cell is by nature a muscle cell. A skin cell is by nature a skin cell.  But the fertilized egg of a human is, by nature, that very thing which becomes a fully developed human. Its nature is different than that of muscle or skin cells because these do not grow into humans. Therefore, a human cell and a human egg are not the same thing. A fertilized human egg has the nature of human development and it is alive. This is not so with a muscle or skin cell.

3. To abort the life, which is human in nature, is to kill that which is human in nature.

4. Therefore, abortion is killing a life which is human by nature.

Where, then, does the mother get the right to kill the human within her?

A question for those who believe in abortion, and that the life in the womb is not human.  Is it okay to take a fertilized egg between a man and a woman and place it in the womb of a dog?

If you say no, then why?  If it is not human then it doesn't matter, right?

If you say no because it will become a human, then you admit that it has human nature and is alive.  If it is human in nature and alive, then you do not have the right to abort it.

If you say it is alright, why is it okay?

[excerpt ends]

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BC said:

…

But my point is, its your faith leads you to that conclusion and not everyone shares your faith.  So why do Christians seek to dictate how everyone should live?

…

thank you bc! good point! i would like to answer your question.

yes, most of us christians are lead to that conclusion because of our faith. personally, i don't see anything wrong with that. i believe that's the way it should be – moved not by what we see, nor smell, nor taste, nor hear, nor feel but moved by our faith in Christ [that's why we are called christians ("christians" originally means little Christs)]. if we are christians afterall, then we should be true to our confessions/professions.

please let me quote some passages in the Bible and i hope you don't mind.

[apostle paul speaking] 13 But we continue to preach because we have the same kind of faith the psalmist [king david] had when he said, “I believed in God, so I spoke.” 14 We know that God, who raised the Lord Jesus, will also raise us with Jesus and present us to himself together with you.  15 All of this [the preaching and persuasion] is for your benefit. And as God’s grace [the Gospel] reaches more and more people, there will be great thanksgiving, and God will receive more and more glory. 16 That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day.  17 For our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! 18 So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen [we are not moved by our senses but by our faith]. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever. 2 Corinthians 4:13-18 NLT (New Living Translation) [amplified by me]

you ever wonder, most of us have never seen God but we love God?

1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients [believers in the old testament days] were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:1-3 NIV [amplified by me]

how can we love people [who we can see]? the same way we love God [who we can't see].

addition:

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.  8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.  9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.  10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.  11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 13 We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.  14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.  15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.  16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.  17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.  18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.  20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.  21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. 1 John 4:7-21 NIV

are we hypocritical when we act according to our faith or when we don't? i guess either way, to non-believers we are hypocritical. how then should we love others? by not telling them that life is at stake even though our conviction says the life should be cared for? should we act out of fear of people will say about us?

yes, God has given everyone free will, the choice is certainly not up to us. but please realize that we are acting out of love through our faith. what God allows [conception], man should not deny [life].

BC said:

…

Who knows, but perhaps being faced with such an enormous decision about life and death, the individual will turn their thoughts to what it means to live and what life is; perhaps even to life's most profound questions.  And isn't God found by those who truely seek him?

yeah, who knows right? so why not offer the love of God [the Gospel] in every situation, especially in a dilemma involving someone else's life? or why not be God's hands and feet? how is God's love, grace, mercy, plans harmful? knowing and experiencing God's love, grace, mercy, plans actually does the person good and leads the person to truly seek Him.

11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.  12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.  13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

bc, are you a believer? just pretending you're not? pretending you're pro-choice? just curious.

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BC said:

In this forum thread I've read some interesting points and perspectives.  Sadly, I don't think there is really much true discussion going on.  For that to occur would require at least first of all identifying and staying with the topic – Abortion in the light of Apologetics.  That is, unless I have mistaken this forum for a chat room.  Secondly, it would require acknoweldging (truely understanding) the other's point.  I see neither here unforunately.  And even more sad is that this follows the same pattern as this discussion in the real world.  So little attempt to understand the other's perspective.  No wonder this topic remains such a hot topic.

bye

BC

thank you bc.

edit/add: please let me [or us] know when/where i [or we] stepped out of the topic. but just to defend myself, please read http://www.fcflife.com/forum/w…..ologetics/

apparently you know much about where a christian would come from; i [or we] didn't need to elaborate on our perspective.

now, please let this forum know more about your perspective; let this forum hear you out.